How to Cultivate Awareness and Self-Control to Overcome Addiction - w/ Jeremy Lipkowitz

Do you ever feel like you are not always the one in the driver's seat of your own life? You have goals. You have intentions, but sometimes bad habits or cravings, they overpower you. Perhaps distractions often seem to demand a larger portion of your time than you would like.

Often invisible barriers can seem to pop up in front of us. Between our plans and our reality and breaking through them isn't just as simple as making a decision .

The good news though is that if that resonates, you're in the right place.

Welcome to the Growth Mindset Psychology Podcast. For listeners,ready to explore a science and philosophy of building a more intentional life. I am your host, Sam Webster Harris, and after eight years of exploring these questions, I have learned that the most powerful changes often come from not fighting ourselves, but from understanding ourselves.

And that brings us to the central question for today's episode, which is, what if the key to breaking our most stubborn habits has nothing to do with willpower and everything to do with learning to access a deeper space in your mind?

Well, my guest is addiction coach Jeremy Lipkowitz and he argues that most of us are completely unaware of our inner ability to be in touch with ourselves. He doesn't just believe that we can escape the cycle of stimulus and reaction for good. He also helps people do it.

Jeremy is the host of the podcast called Unhooked Breaking Porn Addiction, and yes, that does mean we'll be talking about porn today a bit. So if you are listening with some very young miners around you, you might want to save this for later.

The show isn't just about porn, though we talk more widely about all addiction, and I honestly believe that the porn addiction epidemic, for example, is just a part of a wider problem in society as we are becoming more needy and anxious whilst being increasingly served distraction and dopamine by whatever business can profit from our attention.

Now. I'm not here to just blame all companies for it. Ultimately the responsibility rest with ourselves.

In the episode we're gonna talk about shame in addiction, how to build increasingly healthier coping mechanisms and even escape the need for using coping mechanisms altogether,

as well as discussing things like the gray areas of addiction and of course the challenges of distraction in the modern world that's taking over our lives and minds and how to fight back. So stay with us as we learn how to stop being a slave to our inner impulses.

Defining Addiction

I would like to understand as someone who is an addiction coach, how you define addiction.

Yeah, it's a great question. Good one to start off with. There are many different definitions out there. The one that I go to most is just any. Habit or behavior or substance that you repeatedly engage in or do that has negative consequences and you continue to do it despite those consequences. So, you know, really looking at it from this kind of broader perspective, it's not just about, okay, are you shooting a para in, in an alley some way?

It's, are you engaged in some habit or behavior that is causing harm in your life and you continue to do it despite those, those harms. And what's really important there is looking. On the whole, because there are many activities that might cause. You know, short term harm. But in the long run, overall, they're actually bringing benefit.

For example, exercise, you know, exercise, there is some harm. It feels, you know, painful, it's exhausting. You get out of breath. But on the whole, it's bringing more benefit to your life. So you really have to look holistically at these things. On the whole, is this behavior bringing more harm? Is it causing more consequences than it's doing good?

And that's the the definition of addiction that I like to use.

Hmm. Yeah, I, I like both the definition and the moralistic side of it. 'cause then I think it's very easy to just be completely anti drinking, for example. But then it can be really good for your social life and. Get you out and, and doing things and can create those connections that you wouldn't have as a, as a young person, for example. Uh, but obviously if you do it too much and you just, um, vomiting every other day and don't even know what you've been doing, not so useful. Um, okay. Then on the subject of addiction, how. Because I would say I have like a bit of an exercise addiction, which I think is good by via your definition. But then how do you start drawing that line of where it's suddenly become more of a problem for you because of, there's a, a bit of a gray area I feel, uh, in these addictions.

So.

Gray Areas in Addiction

And that's the sad part is that, you know, as you know, if we're really looking at it with that definition, there are many gray areas and sometimes it's really hard to tell with something, is this problematic? Do I need to let this go? Or is it actually bringing more benefit? Exercise addiction is a great example.

I mean, it's something that provides so much benefit. And it might get to the point where it's actually on the whole causing more harm if you are, you know, not spending time with your family if you are burning yourself out because you don't know how to stop and you don't know how to give yourself rest.

So there's a lot of gray areas and it's one of the things that I really want to emphasize for everyone to look at is that it's not just black or white. It's not just this is a bad behavior and this is a good behavior. It's how does it show up in your life? How does it manifest and what are the ways that it's impacting your life?

Because you know, you use that example of drinking. Some people can have a drink once a month and it's beneficial for them. 'cause you know, they go out with friends, they're more social, they connect, and it's not causing that much harm. And so on the whole, you know, it might be fine, but for other people it can lead to serious consequences.

And so all of these addictions, it's really about cultivating that self-awareness to say. What is this doing in my life? What is this impacting?

Modern Addictions and Self-Awareness

And there's a lot of these things, just to go down a little tangent here, particularly with porn, but a lot of these other more modern things like social media, um, you know, food, they have very subtle downstream consequences that can be hard to see.

So, for example, with porn, a lot of people don't realize the ways that it's impacting their life because it's a very subtle effect that builds up over time. And so that's why many people actually get addicted to porn and don't realize it's a problem because they don't see the cause and effect. They don't realize that the problems that they're having with intimacy with their partner might be due to the point that they're watching.

Or the ways that they have, you know, trouble focusing, doing deep work also might be because of the porn they're watching. So it takes a lot of awareness to understand some of these more modern addictions that we have.

Mm. I feel you touched on a few points there, which I wanted to, to dig into. Um, firstly the concept of self-awareness and like advice for people I feel. Uh, people often come out with like, okay, I've found a way, do exactly my way, and then that, that can be quite unhelpful for people because of, I think self-awareness is so much more important and for some people I think it's very important to like, stop their addiction completely and that's the only way they're ever gonna be healthy. And for other people. Maybe there is a way that they can incorporate it into their life a bit. And it is relaxing, like, you know, having the odd drink or maybe they want to get high once or twice but for some people it's gonna be really bad.

And understanding what that level is can be a bit gray or especially. I think when you start, down from an addiction, know with many of my friends that smoke weed every day were like, you know what? I'm just gonna smoke on the weekend. But just having it in their house Monday, Tuesday, they would still be smoking it because of it's there and just working out, uh, what's gonna be difficult for you and, different stages as you become healthy.

Being like, okay, actually for the first year I need to just not do it and I need to come back at it with a fresh face where I can be like more in power still. And just knowing. How long that takes for different people is really hard. Um, and I dunno, do you have any advice of like how you teach people that

Yeah. Well, first I just wanna touch on something, you know, that you said, like taking your power back because you know, that definition of addiction that I gave, that's the, the broad definition. But there are also other components to addiction and you know, things that are helpful to understand it. If someone out there is listening and saying, Hey, am I addicted to something?

You know, part of it is, is it causing negative consequences? Is it causing harm? And you continue to do it, but you know, for example, this, this idea of your power or the opposite of powerlessness, you know, one of the components of addiction is I want to stop, but I feel powerless. I, I just keep doing it even though I know it's not good for me.

Even though I want to stop, I can't help myself. And so that's an, you know, just another component. Escalation is another, uh, component of addiction. So there's a lot of other ways we can tease apart what addiction is and how to know if you're addicted to something.

Mindfulness and Addiction

But getting to that question you just asked of what advice I would give to someone to figure out what their problem is and, you know, to have that self-awareness for me in my own journey of.

Working with my addiction in the past, mindfulness was just such a huge. Component of that, and mindfulness is just this very simple secular practice of learning how to be aware of what's happening in the present moment, in your mind, in your body, in the environment around you, in a very non-judgmental, non-reactive way.

And that. You know, it's different from journaling. A lot of people will use journaling and therapy as a form of self-awareness, and that's really beneficial. But mindfulness is a different kind of awareness. It's less about the story that you're telling about yourself and what your beliefs are, and what trauma you had and all these things.

It's much more about noticing what's happening in your nervous system and in your mind and your body in the present moment, and that's a skill that many people haven't developed. You know, we tend to be very external focused, looking at what's going on outside of us, but having that internal awareness is something we can cultivate also.

Yeah. It's a hard one to explain, like I know what you're talking about, to try to put it into words. When you think about the concept of trying to explain a color that someone hasn't seen to them that the color exists, like the idea that you don't understand what your body is telling you seems a bit bananas to someone.

And you're like, well, obviously I know what's coming at me, or I know what I'm thinking. And so like trying to explain people that they're not in control of their own thoughts and things can sometimes be surprising. Um, and I, uh, I think we might be talking about the same thing, but I also. Tried doing meditation and stuff and didn't find any real results until I did like the Vepa, a 10 day meditation retreat, and the first four days of just complete chaos in my brain and being like, what the hell is this thing that that is supposed to be running my life for a while?

And just slowly like the amount of pain that you feel and, and for the pain to just sort of go and realize that you don't have to react to things immediately. Was like the, just the craziest education and just these feelings in your body and how you can just observe them and watch them and not react to them. And by the end of it, yeah, you just have a completely different understanding of what your body is doing and feeling. I dunno how I still, I dunno how to teach people it without getting 'em to do a 10 day meditation retreat. And no, not, not lots of people want to go do one actually, but most people just look at you like you're a weirdo when you be like, by the way, just go, go 10 days do, do this crazy thing.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, I, I think you, you really nailed it. That, and, and that was the case for me as well. Going on a 10 day ANA retreat was the thing that unlocked a lot of these insights for me. Um, but that's not accessible to everyone for a variety of reasons. Some people don't have the time, some people don't have the interest.

Um, you know, for a lot of reasons why that's not accessible, and I don't wanna do kind of a shameless. Plug, you know, already on your podcast, but it's one of the reasons why I created the, the first course I ever made was a course called Mindfulness Made Easy. And it was really about teaching people the fundamentals of what mindfulness is and how to practice it in a step-by-step way.

And, you know, my background is in the sciences and genetics and genomics, and so I kind of approached it with a very secular and scientific, uh, lens. You know, I'm not. I was never a very religious person, and I think there's a lot of people who appreciate have that, to have that secular kind of lens of how to practice mindfulness.

And so there are ways to learn it, but it takes actually doing the work and actually progressing, not just, you know, a lot of people when they try to learn mindfulness, they'll download Headspace or Calm or something and they'll sit down and close their eyes and they're not necessarily learning. The theory behind it, you know, they don't have the foundation of what mindfulness is and what to actually be doing with your attention because it's not just sitting down and closing your eyes and trying to block out your thoughts.

There's so many misconceptions that people get lost along the way. So it is tough, but you can learn it without going on a 10 day retreat.

Exploring Mindfulness Practices

Yeah, so if it isn't, sitting down for 10 minutes and blocking out your thoughts, what is it exactly?

Yeah. You know, it's, it's really i'll. I'll just give one more example of a common misconception. A lot of people think, okay, I'm gonna practice meditation or mindfulness. I'm gonna sit down and follow my breath, and it's all about paying attention to the breath. And if I can just follow my in breath and out breath, then I've done a good job.

Yeah.

Even that is not what mindfulness really is. It's not about the breath, it's not about blocking out your thoughts. It's about being aware of whatever's happening in the present moment, but not just externally, which we tend to be good at. We're. Aware of a bird flying by. We're aware of maybe a sound, but we're actually starting to cultivate awareness of what's actually happening within us as well.

So for example, let's say you sit down to do a mindful breathing practice and you're following your in breath and you're out breath, and then all of a sudden a thought of something that you said last week to your partner comes into your mind and. Pulls you away from the breath. There's no problem with that.

The mindfulness there is to then start to notice, oh, my mind is now with a memory of something that happened in the past. If an emotion came along with that, let's say sadness or regret or frustration. To actually be aware of that emotion, like, oh, oh, frustration is arising right now. Oh, and I'm noticing not only the emotion, but how it's manifesting in my body.

I'm noticing my shoulders getting tense. So it's, it's really about just noticing whatever's happening in your experience in the present moment. So there's no way to do it wrong. Doesn't matter if your mind goes all over the place. You just notice where your mind is going. What's important there is the quality of your attention.

You know, are you paying attention in that non-judgmental way with, you know, a little bit of kindness and curiosity. That's what's important about mindfulness.

Nice. Uh, yeah. Just hearing you speak. I'm like, I'm like, God, I need to go into the bass again. I'm getting nostalgia. I'm like, oh yeah. Um, a very calming voice. I was just sort of like sitting there imagining things. Um, not being fully aware of my own thoughts. Uh oh,

Well, and let, let me just say something about that because you mentioned this earlier. It's like, how do you describe this to someone? How do you describe a color to someone who's never seen that color? Another example is how do you describe what saltiness tastes like to someone who's never had salt?

It's very hard for people to understand it if they've never tasted it or experienced it. And there's this, you know, little story that I love about the two fishes. You know, these two fishes swimming in the sea and one fish turns to the other one and says, you know, Hey, hey Bob, how's the water today? And the other one turns and says, what water?

And the problem is, you know, we've been swimming in the water of our thoughts and our emotions and everything for our whole life. Many of us don't realize that we're swimming in it. We don't know how to actually pay attention to thoughts, emotions, feelings, because they've been their whole life and we've just kind of taken them for granted.

We don't see them anymore.

Defining Addiction

have you heard much about like the idea of non-player characters? 'cause I feel that's being spoken about more often these days, and I

The what? What characters,

it. Non-player character, the idea that you are

NPCs.

Yeah, exactly.

In what way? I mean, the idea of MPCs is a interesting one comes about in many different ways. So in what? What context? They're curious.

just in general, as in I feel like we are not fully our own decisions ourselves. Whether that's like what we get angry at online or

Hmm.

We think is a good life, et cetera, as, and

Yeah.

like the obvious examples of make sure you grow up thinking that like money and having a Lamborghini is success and like a hot partner, et cetera. But just like your own culture, like there's just so many things that affect how you think as well. And obviously then as we've spoken about, just like these different sort of addictions that rise up and just change our thoughts like subtly like. anyone that has an addiction, of course is by definition a bit of a non-player character.

'cause they're not making those decisions like from a place of control. Right. and so I think yeah, very much in exactly into awareness if you're not aware of your thoughts and why you're thinking them, then you probably aren't in control and you don't have full self-efficacy. You're not, In control of what you do with your life.

Yeah, and this is something that so many people who struggle with, whether we wanna call it addictions or people who struggle just with compulsive behaviors, this idea that you know, you're not in control and that you are just on autopilot and, and that is a very painful experience. You know, one of the reasons that I.

I had a lot of desire to break free from my addiction was in many ways I felt like I was a slave to my addiction. Like I wasn't in control. And whenever lust arose or whenever desire arose, craving I was a slave to it. You know, I couldn't actually change the trajectory of my life. I just, you know, uh, maybe an MPC is a good way to describe it, but I think a lot of people know that feeling of.

Just being on autopilot, following out their conditioned habits and behaviors without a lot of intentional choice. And there's this quote that I love. That highlights this about the power of taking control back. It comes from the work of Viktor Frankl, who's a Holocaust survivor, and his work was summarized by Stephen Covey into this quote that said, between stimulus and response, there's a space.

Hmm.

that space is your power to choose your response, and in your response lies your growth and your freedom. So that really encapsulates this idea that between stimulus and response, between something happening and you responding, there's a space there. But if you don't have access to that space, you just react.

So there's stimulus and reaction, and that's when you're, the MPC, that's when you're the the slave to, you know, whatever emotion has arisen. But if you can gain access to that space. Then you have the power to choose how you want to respond, and that's where all of our freedom lies. As you know, being a human without that space, we're just following out our conditioned habits and behaviors.

So if you want all of your power and your freedom back, it lies in getting access to that space between stimulus and response. And that's what mindfulness gives us. So, kind of coming full circle, that's why mindfulness is, is such a superpower for overcoming, uh. Bad habits. It gives you choice.

definitely. Um, yeah, I did a, I did a whole episode called How to Build Free Will. It was all about, uh, that it started from that quote basically. I really enjoyed it. But I, I find there's so many like circles that come back to the same thing in my podcast when with growth mindset Around free will MBC, um, Buddhism, they are they all slightly different flavors of something That kind of leads back to this sense of like building your own free will and like being in charge of your life. Um, it, are there any that I haven't mentioned there that our themes that you find, you always sort of come to, but it's just like a different lens on like actually arriving in the same place, uh, out of

There are so many. I mean, the thing is that I know exactly what you're talking about is like, there's so many of these ideas or concepts that are found in, in so many different traditions and they all are interconnected. You know, you know, the idea of cultivating self-mastery and, and discipline and, you know, learning how to take back your power and, and all these things.

I mean, they pop up in stoic, like you said, stoicism, Buddhism, you know. All these different forms. Um, so, you know, I would say are are there any others? There's, there's thousands of others.

Okay. Terrible question. Doesn't matter. Um, good to know.

The Role of Shame in Addiction

Uh, so the other question I had was, um, you spoke about,you've alluded to your own journey a few times, so I'd be interested to hear what were your issues and then how did you overcome them? Because, yeah, I think lots of people have problems, but the actual getting outta the problem is, is the hard part.

Yeah. Well, okay, so here's a great example to answer your last question of, okay, what are some of the themes that keep popping up, not just in my work, but in all these other works? And one of them is shame, you know, like understanding the role of shame. This is something that keeps coming up and it is so important in addiction as it is with almost everything else, you know, and the value of, of humility and, and self-worth and being humble.

Actually being honest about your problems not being in denial, but this topic of shame. You know, one of the reasons that porn addiction, any addiction really, but particularly porn addiction and sex addictions have a lot of shame associated with them. Uh, and it's one of the reasons that it's very hard to overcome because.

The thing about shame is that it tells us this lie that we are broken in some way, and that if people knew the truth about us, they would reject us or call the police or run away in terror. I mean, this is what shame says, whispers in your ear. It says, Hey, if people knew what you were really like, if people knew what you did, you know, they would think you're a monster.

They would know that you're broken and they would kick you out of the tribe and you would die alone. That's kind of the secret that shame whispers to us, and because of that shame makes us want to isolate. It makes us want to run away to not be open or vulnerable, to not talk about what we're going through because we have this fear that if people knew they wouldn't love me, and so I better put on the mask and pretend that things are okay, and pretend this isn't an issue and hide the things that I'm struggling with so that nobody knows and I can pretend to be a part of the tribe.

And so overcoming shame is one of the most important things to do when you're overcoming addiction is if you can't overcome shame, you, you're not gonna get support and seek help or even admit to yourself that you have a problem. Right? And so that was one of the things that kept me from, from overcoming it was just the shame around.

Porn and masturbation and sex and all of these things.

Hmm.

so I, I really had to learn how to talk about it and how to, you know, before I could talk about it, how to accept it.

Yeah,

oh, I am a sexual being and that's okay.

it definitely is. And well, one, we're all animals. Uh, two, I think, I think it's, it's interesting in societies and

I.

if anyone was to just talk about the habits of sex, it would still be kind of funny, right? Let's say you just completely traditional normal sex style. You only do missionary the whole time. If, if everyone knew that. You would be embarrassed, right? If you do sometimes kinky stuff, that's also embarrassing. Like whatever is your sexual preference, it's embarrassing that people know it. Like whatever you do, it's still already shameful, right? And then you start getting into porn and other things, it becomes even worse.

But it's strange that like literally whatever you do is already a problem, right? And like it shouldn't be 'cause we're all just animals that have slightly different preferences, but. At some point we wanna procreate or somehow do something sexual, whether, you know, bisexual, not sexual, et cetera. so yeah, it's just a confusing point that, that I hadn't really

thought about until you're speaking.

Sexuality and Societal Norms

No, it's, it's confusing, but it's, it's fascinating that for some reason sexuality is this part of our, our humanity, our physiology that is for some reason very sensitive, very shameful. It's, we like to keep it kind of private and it's hard to know where that comes from. And because you look at other animals in the animal kingdom and.

There's not a lot of shame around their sexuality.

Historical Perspectives on Sexuality

yeah, well, having done a lot of reading about the Stone Age, I can say that it wasn't always like that. And we lived more tribally, we did used to have sex around other people and it was just more a more practiced thing. And I think we were. Yeah, closer to sort of animalistic, sort of like chimpanzee nobos that we'll just have sex wherever they wanna have sex, et cetera. over time we became more, um, well, even though we were like pair bonding for a long time, but like over time we slowly had more like rigors of who you had to have sex with. And, um, once it became like single and sort of annoying, we kind of wanted to hide things from others. And I, at some point, I guess in that to the different level, we also decided that, um, to hide things. But yeah, I

Yeah.

don't have a full answer or to that, but it's, it's interesting. It's somewhere in

Yeah.

in that domain.

Challenges of Overcoming Porn Addiction

Yeah, well, you know, I'll just say like that's one of the issues that makes porn addiction really hard to overcome for a lot of people is, is the shame. But there's so many other reasons that are maybe more modern, you know, porn especially it's, you know, one of the things I talk about a lot is something called the three A's of porn addiction, and it's these three things that make porn very highly addictive.

And so there's the affordability.

Yeah.

The accessibility and the an anonymity. So, you know, affordability is like, the more affordable a drug is, the more likely you are to develop an addiction to it.

The Cost of Addiction

If something's $5,000 every time you want to take a hit, you won't get that addicted to it very easily. But if it's free, you know it's much easier and porn is free.

Accessibility and Anonymity

And that leads to the second A, which is accessibility. It is literally in everyone's pocket. All day, every day. The the analogy I like to give here is imagine if you're a recovering alcoholic or recovering coke addict, and you had to walk around with those substances in your pocket at all times. Just imagine if you're a recovering coke addict and there's coke in your pocket wherever you go, and you could take it and it's totally free.

So it's highly accessible. Highly affordable, and then it's also easily done anonymously. You know, you can do it without anybody knowing. And so these are some of the, kind of, some of the forces that make this addiction very hard to overcome.

Triggers and Coping Mechanisms

yeah, and like the triggers as in like, if you wanna stop. Well, again, again, most of those addictions people then do start doing by themself like smoking or um, alcohol. But as far as, triggers as well, I feel like at any point in time when you're alone near, near PC mobile phone, like it could be a trigger, whereas. If you wanna stop smoking it's hard to deal with the normal things in your life, but also it's, it is much harder when you go out with your friends and they're all smoking kind, for example. But you don't have that with with porn because it's sort of all the time whenever you're like left alone, I guess, which I guess you could do the opposite and constantly spend time with people, but that's not the most practical, solution.

Yeah. Well that gets, I mean, this is a topic we could maybe talk about now or later, but you know.

Addressing Underlying Issues

This, when it comes to recovery, when it comes to overcoming an addiction, the big mistake a lot of people make is they just say, okay, I just need to keep myself super busy. I just need to push it away and try to force myself to not watch it.

But what's happening is they're not actually addressing the underlying issue. They're not looking at why did I get addicted in the first place? Because addiction is not about the behavior. It's, it's a coping mechanism to deal with pain that you don't know how to deal with.

Mm-hmm.

It's a coping mechanism, mechanism to deal with.

Unpleasant emotions that are coming up. Loneliness, boredom, stress, anxiety. So if you wanna overcome an addiction, you can't just, you know, try to keep yourself busy at all times. You have to actually start to look at what's going on underneath.

And yeah, I definitely, I've seen this like, I mean, I haven't, um, spoken with a lot of people, uh, recovering from porn addictions, even though I think it's like probably one of the most prevalent ones. But as far as like recovering from, um, like weed addictions, like you see people that do make really good steps. In their head, default way when life gets hard or something is up is like, oh, I really want to join right now. Whereas like that, it still shows that you haven't really found like a coping addiction. But like my default is definitely like, I want, I need to go for a run. I just need to get out the house and like do something different when like, life is hard for me, but like I, it is just interesting to see how you can be more healthy, but you still like have the desire for the same action, which, uh. Well, I don't know if that means that you haven't broken it yet or not, but it is interesting how like in these moments you still kind of want the same thing and haven't built a different way of coping.

Yeah.

Healthy Coping Mechanisms

Well, you know, there's, this is a great topic to explore, which is like, there's kind of two ways to do to look at it, or at least how I look at it is these two different ways. One is, can I have. Healthier and healthier coping mechanisms. Can I be moving up the ladder of coping mechanisms that are skillful and healthy?

So it, it might start with porn or drugs or alcohol or something and okay, maybe I move in the, uh, slightly less harmful direction of, okay, now my coping mechanism is Netflix.

Mm-hmm.

That's an improvement from from porn. It's still kind of an escape. I'm still not learning how to deal with the emotion in a healthy way, but it's moving in the right direction.

I would say exercise is very high up that list. It's a very healthy coping mechanism. You know, there might still be some harms associated with it, but you continuing to move in that healthier, more skillful direction. That's one. Wing of the bird of, of learning how to deal with this.

Mindfulness and Embracing Emotions

The other, which is again, what mindfulness can give us is something that is totally radical, which is actually not trying to escape the emotion at all, but actually learning how to be with the emotion without needing to escape, without needing to cope with exercise or junk food or.

You know, even going out for a walk, like

Hmm.

learning how to actually be with something unpleasant and make space for it and say, oh, I'm feeling lonely right now, and that's okay, and I welcome this loneliness, and I don't need to run away from that feeling. I don't need to cope. I don't need to watch Netflix to make this go away.

I don't need to go on a run to make this go away. I can do those things. Make me feel better, and there's nothing wrong with it. It's also really helpful to learn how to just let a painful emotion be a painful emotion because it's trying to tell you something like, oh, I'm lonely. I wonder why I'm lonely.

Oh, maybe I need to go make some more friends. Maybe I need to get out and connect. So learning how to be with an unpleasant emotion is incredibly important for recovery, and it's part of what mindfulness teaches us how to do.

Nice.

And you going on Vipassana retreats. I mean, that's what Vipassana is. It's right.

It's like you're sitting with pain. Oh, unpleasant, unpleasant. Anisha. Anisha,

you know?

yeah. Constant.

The Challenge of Distraction

It's, it's hard though in terms of, well, yeah, I guess we haven't spoken about it too much, but just in terms of, I feel like our brains so wired for distraction it's hard, like as in I think a lot of people. Sometimes just on the weekend find themselves surprised that they're like, shit, I'm bored.

I dunno what to do. There's nothing to do. And like, I've already checked the news five times and you're like, ah. Like I feel like we are just very, like constantly used to distraction that it's, well, one, it's wiring all the rest of our addictions. And you just look at like everything that we used to do, like from reading books now it's like TikTok or like. Even you'd go watch a sport or play a sport and now it's sort of like you can just bet on a sport instantly and all these different areas. We're just getting so much more like going down our brainstem. It, it's just more and more businesses that have just like found a way to make money from giving us the thing instantly. And I think, yeah, it's really hard for people to just, to stop and do nothing,

Totally.

which at least going for a walk, I feel does make it easier to sit with, be with your thoughts rather than just sitting there.

Practical Tips for Reducing Phone UseDefining Addiction

do you give any other tips for people like toturn their phone off more of the time or like leave it in one part of the house

feel like it's very related.

if you have a porn addiction, just, just spending less time checking anything or just being on your phone and, and this kind of stuff, I think it would, it's really helpful.

Totally. I, I mean, I've, I have like a whole, um, library of tips and strategies and things that are helpful. Um, and I want to, you know, before I just mention any of those tips, I, I want to again say that like the tips are helpful and you also at the same time need to start. Doing the inner work of, okay, I can put my phone in another room, I can put blockers on my phone so that it's harder to access porn.

Uh, I, I can do all these things, and those are important and helpful, and you should do them, and you also have to make time for doing that inner work of learning how to be with loneliness without running away, which it's, they're not a mutually exclusive. You can and should be doing both, like, oh. When my mind is searching for a distraction, can I actually just sit on the front porch and watch people walk by and listen to the birds?

Right?

Hmm.

That being said, some of these tips, you know, one of the most simplest, uh, that, that people can implement right away is stop sleeping with your phone in, in your bedroom. Like, that's the number one rule I, I kind of introduced for the guys in my community is, hey, plug your phone in the kitchen, in the living room, in your garage.

If you don't have any of those, put it in your car at the end of the day before you go to sleep. You know, put it somewhere else, not in your bedroom. Just doing that alone. Just having your bedroom be a safe place where it's like time to disconnect and slow down and not be sitting in your bed. Scrolling at 11:00 PM

definitely.

wonders for you.

Yeah, I, I've heard of people getting a, like a longer charger and just only like when their phone is in the house, it's always on charge and like, it's, it's kind of like a landline kind of thing. And so if you wanna use your phone, you just have to be like, stood in the lounge where it is and that's the only place you can use it.

And like, I really like it. I try to keep my phone just plugged in always in the same place now. And like I just. Don't take it with me around the house. Um, 'cause it's so easy just yeah. Take it with you when you get the toilet or like, as you're just waiting for the kettle to boil. It's just constant like,

Yeah,

seconds, must, must think about something as opposed to waiting like,

The Benefits of Boredom

and we know, I mean, there's so many studies now showing how beneficial boredom is.

yeah.

improves your cognitive ability, it improves your creativity, your focus. All of these things that we kind of have lost in a lot of ways. Giving yourself the gift of being bored and being okay with that and not filling that space with just mindless distraction is a huge benefit for all the things we care about.

You know, your productivity, your focus, creativity, wellbeing

Mm.

comes from being bored. You know that that's one of them. But there's so many others.

definitely. Like I, yeah, I found, I mean, when I was doing the Vepa, I. I found it really nice as a feeling like after, after the first four or five days of pain, I was just like, I just, in my happy place the whole time. And I feel like when you do actually really embrace a Sunday, be like, cool, I'm not using technology today.

And like after you've got off the initial pain of like being bored a bit, you're like, oh, it's so nice to not constantly thinking about things like people pay so much money to go on a holiday where they can relax. like there's this, there's these things in the UK now where you can take this three day retreat where you, um, have to lock your phone away and people are like, this is the best thing I've done in like five years. And you're like, well, yeah, you can just do that any weekend. Like no one's making you have technology on all the time in your house kind of

Yeah. That being said, you know, I, it's one of the reasons I, I still like to go on. Silent Vipassana retreats myself is that it's a forced. They call them self blocking strategies because the truth is it's very hard to have the discipline to put your phone away for three days and say, I'm, I'm not gonna check anything.

It can be very helpful to have external supports to that decision,

Hmm.

going on a retreat. Where they lock your phone away, like in a Vipasana retreat, they lock away your devices, and you have this external support structure that supports your ability to actually disconnect. I think those are powerful and wonderful, but it is silly, as you say, like human nature, like you could do it yourself, but if you have to pay for it, it's worth every, every cent you pay.

Hmm. It's, yeah, it's nice how natural it makes it, and it's interesting to question what the things that makes it difficult at home. 'cause I'm like, okay, I want to have a camera with me or I want to have. Like tracking for my run or whatever, I'm like, do I need that all the time? 'cause half the time I don't take a photo or like, can I just sort of go to the beach for the day because I lived near the beach without my phone.

'cause like I love going for runs sometimes in places that I haven't been. Just as a challenge to see if I get lost and to like find my way out. 'cause I like learning how to navigate. 'cause I, I, it's something I'm naturally kind of good at. So it's nice to have the challenge. Um, but yeah, otherwise, like when I'm actually in places where I already know where I'm going, like I do it less.

'cause if I'm like, how cool I wanna listen to a podcast, et cetera.

Hmm.

it's interesting, just

Yeah,

randomly thinking about my own experiences.

I mean there's, there's so many threads I wanna pull on here, but one is like, just, just this question of why is it so hard for us to do something that we know is gonna make us feel good? We know that if we go for a walk in a park without our phone, we're gonna feel better than if we go for a walk in the park with our phone.

Like most people now are at the. The state, the stage where they understand that, yeah, I'll feel better if I disconnect.

Yeah.

is it so hard? And one of the answers is, there are billions and billions of dollars trying to get you addicted to your screen and to your phone. It's, you know, these phone companies and these app companies, you are the product and they are selling your attention.

To advertisers and it's, there's a lot of money behind it, and they hire the smartest people in the world to figure out how to get you hooked. And, and so just to have a little bit of humility, like it's not just, oh, I should be able to do this so easily. It's not easy. It, it can be quite challenging.

but yeah, it's the weirdest thing as well. It's like you, when you do go without it, it's the same as in if you work like a very. Simple, normal, structured place where like you don't take your work home with you. Like I used to be a lifeguard. Or if you work in a coffee shop and you just leave and like your work is over, it's like, it's like suddenly you've just left this whole like domain of like thought and work behind.

When you just leave your house without your phone like, oh wow, I didn't even know I could feel this, this relax. Like there's nothing tying me to my pocket or like other things I could be thinking about. I'm just like out by myself. I feel like a child. It's crazy. And. And it's so good. Yeah, I hardly do it, which is super dumb. But yeah, it's really nice.

you know, I'll just say for anyone who's listening to this, who, you know, obviously I, I talk a lot about porn addiction. That's my story. It's a lot of the work I do. Forever was out there listening. You might not struggle with porn addiction. You might not really understand why people struggle with it, but hopefully, you know, you can see in your own life the ways that you are addicted to doing things, even though you know it's harmful or it's not beneficial.

Like we all have these things where, yeah, I know I should not eat, you know, seven donuts from Krispy Kreme, but, uh, they sure tastes good, you know, whatever it is.

Yeah.

To have some, some common humanity, some compassion say, yeah, I understand what addiction feels like.

Yeah, I think, yeah, I'd be surprised if anyone hasn't had some form of addictions in their life. Uh, ' cause yeah, it's just, we're just kind of wired for these things and we're not in an, in a environment. Conducive to just being a natural human in the slightest. And as part of why I really like your podcast is that although it's called unhooked and breaking free from porn addiction, like it's just generally I feel like just being a healthier person and just makes me think about things in like a nicer way. Uh, yeah, you just talk about addiction from many different angles that whether or not I'm like thinking about porn addiction at the time, like I still come away with other thoughts, uh, that, that are really useful. And so it's nice. To hear about and yeah. Um, so one, thanks for making a nice podcast.

No, and it's like, that's really the mission that I'm on, I would say, is like to help people realize it's not about porn. It's really, it's about like all the ways that we are not living. In the most fulfilling way possible. You know, in all the ways that we can get sidetracked or, you know, have some self-sabotage where we're sabotaging our own happiness and success.

And it's not just about productivity, it's about real happiness and fulfillment. Like what are the ways that we get distracted by these shiny objects that are out there and go for those instead of the thing that's actually gonna make us feel really good inside.

Definitely I could feel, uh, I suppose not a bit random, but like there's been a big wave of like people finding a DHD resources or thinking they have a DHD and stuff, and. That's like a much easier one to confess to and say that you have and like it's almost liberating and non shameful to be like, oh, I have a reason for my problems when like 90% of people that have even got an A DH ADHD diagnosis still don't really have it. Um, because if you pay someone, they'll give you the diagnosis, right? If you've just been distracted all the time, you can tick all the boxes. And I actually think that like, like the poor addiction side of one or. Is actually a much like I've, I've learned so much more listening to your podcast than I have listening to any A DHD podcast and I've listened to like plenty of them in terms of like addiction and actually just focusing more on what you actually wanted to do that day and with your life and Yeah.

But I think it's, it's, they're both very similar features in society that are just becoming very prevalent. Like people can't control their attention spans, very much links into also not being able to control like porn addictions, It's all over the place. Uh, it's just people don't talk about the porn addiction one that much because of it's very shameful and scary to talk about. so yeah, I think it's just an interesting parallel.

Yeah, totally. I mean, it's, oh, I, first of all, I appreciate the kind words about the podcast. I'm happy to, to hear that it's, it's giving you some insights about A DHD as well. Um, but it's a common thing. So many people struggle with it.

Mm. Yeah.

The Impact of Porn on Society

Yeah, definitely. Uh, is there anything you haven't said that you wish you were able to say? we'll

There, there's a million things. Um, but, uh, uh, you know, I know you and I are planning a, a part two, maybe in-person podcast, so we can save it for that.

Seeking Support and Community

But I'll just say, you know, for anyone who's listening, who is struggling with Born, just to know that you're not alone and you're not broken and you can get support and you can get help and.

Learning how to open up about it is the best thing you can do. So, you know, connect with me, connect with my community. Find a men's group in your area. You know, find some way to start opening up about it and getting support.

That's one. Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure to have you.

Thanks a lot for Jeremy coming on the show. If you found his voice as soothing and calming as I do, well, you might enjoy his podcast called Unhooked, breaking Free from Porn Addiction, wherever you get your podcasts. And as I've mentioned a few times on the episode already, his show does go beyond just talking about porn and it helps you build a healthy approach to life in general, I would say.

And his episodes in conversations are always both. Uplifting and very human and empathetic to the reality of life.

So I'm honestly very grateful that I've met him and that he's making such a wonderful and helpful show.

, If you are interested in learning more about non-player characters or building more free will, as we mentioned in the episode, then in the archives of the Growth Mindset Show, we have an episode all about the different types

of MPCs that there are . And I found that episode really fascinating. I've also done a big masterclass on how to carve free will into our lives and control our destiny, which again was one of my favorite episodes as well.

Then on Jeremy's show, if you want to learn more about addiction or his top tips on breaking addiction, he has a great episode on how to approach your first 30 days of sobriety as well as many areas of just addiction and building a healthier mindset and being more in control of your life.

Right. If you're subscribed to our premium podcast, I will be releasing some extra bonus content from Jeremy there that we didn't have time for in this episode, for more lessons on porn in society, how it's affecting young men, and how to cure cognitive dissonance. So, if you're not a premium subscriber, now might be the time to join.

And yes, as usual, if you enjoyed the show and it made you think of anyone who seems to be really addicted to all the terrible things in life, well, you might want to share some of the lessons from this episode with them by sending it to them.

And that is how the show grows after all. Of course, a rating and review goes a long way to helping the show. , If you wanna get in touch with me in the episode description, you can find details for contacting me or booking a call with me. And you'll find details on how to follow my new podcast, how to Change the World.

And with that, I hope we gave you some inspiration today for a more peaceful rest of your day. And I hope you enjoy it.

Thank you so much for listening. Go you. Your consistency to reach the end of an episode is legendary, my hero. If you have any ideas or feedback for the show, I'm always interested to hear from you. You're the best studies show. We need time for information to sink in, so I'm going to give you a five second pause, silence to reflect on one idea from the show before you jump back into your busy life.

Ready and go.