The Surprising Habits of Emotionally Resilient (unstressable) People /w Military Psychologist Steven Stein

[00:00:00]

Introduction to Hardiness Concept

Sam: How we deal with challenges directly relates to our success and even our happiness and contentment. You've probably heard the saying that hard choices lead to an easy life and easy choices lead to a hard life.

And so the question is, when life tests us, do we rise to meet adversity face on or do we panic and maybe give up and seek something easier to do? Well, we often talk about resilience here on the growth mindset, and I'm delighted to be joined today by Dr. Steven Stein, who wrote the book on hardiness. It was a concept that was first researched in the military, but ended up branching across all areas of high performance.

We are going to learn today about the qualities that unite people who are unstress able

And the mindsets that they have cultured to help them succeed in so many different areas. And importantly, what lessons and training you can employ to [00:01:00] become more unbreakable and hardy. Steven Stein has also written several books on emotional intelligence, which certainly relates, and we had him on the show a month ago, which was one of our most popular episodes ever.

So I'm sure you will love this one as well. .

Also joining me on the interviewing team is Emerson Montano, who happens to be an especially hard individual. He recently cycled the height of Everest twice in a row over a nonstop cold and rainy 30 hours, and in the process gave himself so much nerve damage in his hands that he couldn't use his hands for six weeks.

. So besides being an aggressive geek, he also seems to know something about being hard. And with that, hello and welcome to the Growth Mindset podcast with me, Sam Webster Harris. And stay tuned for an education on resilience hardiness,

and how to distinguish between the myths and the facts when it comes to willpower.

Hardiness: The Three Cs

Track 1: Steven, could you please explain what [00:02:00] Hardiness is and how the research first came about and what you found?

steven-stein_1_02-27-2024_111051: So that, I wrote with my colleague, Paul Bartone, who was a senior psychologist in the US Army. He was at West Point and he had spent, most of his career looking at this,

What differentiated people who were succeeding in life versus those who weren't succeeding so well, but looking at it kind of as a mindset, view as opposed to skills. And,

it was interesting how they started their work was that the University of Chicago and, they were involved in studying executives, at a telecom industry to understand how they deal with stress. And in the middle of their research, there was a corporate takeover and a significant number of the executives they were studying got let go.

they were let go of their jobs. They were laid off, they were fired. And and that was kinda a dramatic event in the middle of your research study. But they were still working with these individuals. And what they found was there was a dramatic difference in how people dealt with, these situations. [00:03:00] You're sure living bubbles. and what what they found was that some people, were devastated by losing their jobs. They were just completely lost it, and other people thought, wow, this is a great opportunity. I really was excited about maybe doing so going to business myself, opening a bakery or something I've always wanted to do.

This was an opportunity, so that was the beginning of

this area called. hardiness. That is what they, they enabled it. 'cause they started looking at the mindset, well it wasn't called mindset in those days, but what were these people thinking? How did they approach life? What differentiates these two groups of people?

And, Paul, my co-author, extended his research into instead of executives for more, blue collar jobs, he studied bus drivers. 'cause he used to work summers as a bus driver and said, you know, they're under a lot of stress too. I wonder if they, the

good bus drivers from the not so good bus drivers, can we differentiate them?

And lo and behold, they did. It was the same three factors that we call the three [00:04:00] Cs that differentiated those that coped. Well the first was what we call challenge. And that is when something bad happens or there's a negative situation, instead of sort of. Being depressed and falling apart over it.

People with high score, high on challenge see it as an opportunity. They say, wow, maybe there's a silver lining on this and, and where can I go with this? What can I do? How could I, how could I change my life to look at this differently? The second one is control. And what that is, is that people who feel that there are things within their world they can control.

I can't control the fact that I just got laid off my job. And if I spend all my time fighting with management and all those people to hire me back, I'm wasting my time. That's not a good idea. But if I control things, like get my resume ready, start looking at other opportunities, the things that I do have control over, I'll be much better off. And the third C is [00:05:00] commitment. And that has to do with having a purpose, a purpose in life. Something that I'm engaged in, that I really believe in. And the people who were successful. We're the ones who felt, you know, there's something that they really want to do in life that they look forward to.

I really enjoy baking. I really want to dedicate myself to baking or even believing in a higher being, believing in God for some people, drives them and gives them, the fortitude to go forward. so those three Cs back in those days, and again, we're going back about 25 years, has led to hundreds of research studies over time.

Now, Paul, having been involved. The military published most of his research in scientific and military journals. So he was working at West Point, for example, looking at leadership. 'cause that's, you know, that's known as one of the centers of great leadership. And they looked at a bunch of different variables.

And this factor that I'm talking about, hardiness was one of the best predictors of who succeeded in the military as a [00:06:00] leadership. So Paul and I were friends and I said, you know, Paul, we gotta bring this out into the rest of the world. This is not just a military thing. This is good for the corporate world, it's good for, people who work in any kind of area, in the world.

So that's why we decided to write the book Hardiness And a lot of the research has, has transcended, has gone beyond the military looking at police officers, looking at first responders, looking at, I did work with musicians doing work with athletes. We looked at some star over high performing athletes finding that these three Cs in various ways within these different groups, the added the, the mindset that these people have in approaching life being a significant aspect

of their

Track 1: Mm,

steven-stein_1_02-27-2024_111051: to both deal with stress and succeed.

Sam (2): definitely. I mean, look at Taylor Swift, taking on the issues with her, like music, licensing, and then just reproducing everything and becoming the biggest artist on the planet. embrace some opportunity with

self-control and

commitment. Smashed it.[00:07:00]

steven-stein_1_02-27-2024_111051: Yeah. And in my book, we talk about other musicians such as Madonna and, and others, lady Gaga who went through some traumas in their life and were able to overcome those traumas and become, Incredibly successful in their music careers.

Track 1: I've always found it fascinating seeing people in the same circumstances. Obviously it's easiest to do that with people that have gone through something the same as me and then reacted really differently. As in like, you see some people really grow and get stronger and some people shrink and get weaker and with the same brushes and stuff, it's really fascinating and it's just something going on in their brain that's reacting to it differently.

And you're like, ah,

steven-stein_1_02-27-2024_111051: Mm-Hmm.

Track 1: it could be so much easier. But it does,

sound very much like stoicism.

steven-stein_1_02-27-2024_111051: emotions pay a role in this. I'm not saying don't feel sad or don't regret the fact that you've been fired or whatever. It's, it's unfortunate. But then we gotta sort of find ways to move beyond.

And those emotions that we experience often motivate us. That's the purpose of emotions, right? They often alert us as, as a warning signal, or motivate [00:08:00] us to do something different. So the anger that I have of being fired, I'm gonna turn that anger around and use it to find my next, pot of gold out there.

Positive Thinking vs Reframing

Track 1: How about just positive thinking in general? Because

a lot of these is just like a positive reaction to something versus a negative reaction.

steven-stein_1_02-27-2024_111051: Yeah, I am not a big fan. I just positive thinking that's, that's, again, that's kind of a denial. You're sort of saying, oh, everything's wonderful. You know, Pollyanna, that's not the way the world

is. There are crappy things out there,

and you've gotta accept this crap.

Track 1: I would also say that like it is the positive. Framing of a challenge to be like, okay, this is an opportunity for me to get better or to learn from it, as opposed to, it's a negative framing to be

like, okay, I'm useless. I'm

just gonna quit and never do this again. Like,

steven-stein_1_02-27-2024_111051: exactly. That's what we call that reframing, not positivity,

Track 1: I'm very not

into the like,

whatever the secret and,

like affirmations and just being like, cool, if I believe I can do it, everything will be [00:09:00] easy. And you're like, no, no, you have to believe and you have to do it. You have to do all the hard part. Like

just thinking

steven-stein_1_02-27-2024_111051: Yeah,

Track 1: like isn't gonna make it.

steven-stein_1_02-27-2024_111051: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. You have to accept what's out there, not

deny it, and just say everything's wonderful and say, okay, well what can I do about this? And then we reframe it in a more active way that we can go forward.

Track 1: Hmm.

Hardiness in Acute vs Chronic Stress

Track 1: so you were talking about hardiness and how it relates to handling stress, and you gave some examples like the corporate takeover, which sounds like it would play out over weeks or months, but it sounds like this, research was coming out of the army, people in the army might face periods of extremely acute stress.

That might be only a few minutes. does hardiness play a big role in dealing with very short bouts of acute stress as well as long-term bouts of more chronic stress?

steven-stein_1_02-27-2024_111051: It can definitely, because again, think of it as working out in the gym and building your muscle. So if you're strong in these [00:10:00] skills, these three Cs, then you can draw on them quickly or when you need them. you've practiced them, you've worked with them. In terms of the chronic, one of the areas that we've write about in, in the book Hardiness, probably the worst situation you could imagine in the world is being, a prisoner of war, right? And we document cases of prisoners of war and how they survive that extreme stress. And these, three Cs come up as kind of a, again, a differentiator of those who seem to survive being a prisoner of war, versus those who do crumble under the stress and not make it. So, yeah, it's good for the short term and it's good for the long term.

Track 1: How do you think you would respond to being a prisoner of war?

steven-stein_1_02-27-2024_111051: Not very well.

I don't like pain. Uh, I don't know.

Track 1: Get to know ourselves.

steven-stein_1_02-27-2024_111051: Right.

Track 1: It's not something I look forward to, but I've always been like kind of like, Hmm, I wonder what would happen.

it depends on who you're captured by. Yeah. Also that,

steven-stein_1_02-27-2024_111051: Yeah. [00:11:00] That might make a difference for sure.

Track 1: yeah, I was thrown in prison once for no reason and threatened with being raped. I was, I think I performed quite well during that period.

steven-stein_1_02-27-2024_111051: For really?

Track 1: yeah, if you're good on hardiness. Yeah.

So would you say that your hardiness, other than response to like major too much levels of stress has

also improved

through your research?

steven-stein_1_02-27-2024_111051: I would think. So again, it's a matter of being more aware of these skills, more conscious of them, that I think makes a difference. So, when something happens, again, I, think, well, how much

control do I have over the situation? Does it really worth my while to, to rage anger at this person when that's not gonna make a difference? Or am I gonna kind of move in a different direction and try and do something positive? So yeah, it makes me much more confident in terms of commitment too. Like, I, you know, my purpose, things I want to do in terms of my work, spreading the word of our research and our work.

I, it is a purpose for

me, you know, writing these books, knowledge, education, so those things [00:12:00] drive me to a great degree. different things that I'm involved in.

Writing habits and hardiness

Track 1: in terms of your writing practices,

what are your writing habits?

steven-stein_1_02-27-2024_111051: I have a pretty hectic work life. I travel a lot and do a lot of different things. So let's say I schedule Thursday from

two to five to do my writing. If I'm not in the mood or things aren't I. Sitting. Well, that's not a good thing. So it's important to know how to, to get into the mood and how to make sure that the, those two hours are productive. So I use music, so I know one of the things that, that I used to, to get through my heartiness book, I was Van Morrison.

I would turn on some Van Morrison music and I would start working. And if it wasn't working for me, I'd sort of change it up and I'd put on, uh, the band, Chicago and Chicago would give me a bit more energy and motivate me along the way. So I use music a lot in terms of, motivating and getting myself. Uh, move myself forward in writing. Uh, 'cause I can't afford to waste that time if I've [00:13:00] only got a block of time to write. It's gotta be productive. And the only reason it's not productive is I'm not in the right frame of mind. Right. I'm thinking about something else or other things happening. So I've gotta focus on writing and the music will guide my focus in the right mood and get me to write what I've gotta write and get me through it.

And I've written five books. so I have a pretty good

Track 1: Yeah. Good work is 'cause I would say certainly emotional intelligence and hardiness, both having elements of control of your emotions to be able to put them to one side to do the important thing.

steven-stein_1_02-27-2024_111051: Critical. I mean, that part of my learning, working with with high performance athletes

was they have to do that all the time. And performers, that's their life, right? You've got a, you've got a tennis match

coming up, at Wimbledon or somewhere. And if you're not in the mood, you can't say, I'm not in the mood.

I don't feel like playing today. You've gotta put yourself in that mood. So having worked with some of these athletes, we've learned some of these techniques such as visualization music, [00:14:00] in terms of getting them in the mood. Olympic athletes who use music to, it's not just any music. There's, there's a, there's a art and science to which music you use for what kind of a competition or who you're competing against. again, I've written about some of this, so it, it's really interesting how a master chess player will use a certain type of music against one type of opponent versus a different type of opponent where he wants to be more aggressive in one situation than in another. Uh, US Olympic swim team.

Swimmers use what particular music at a certain, RPM, rate per minute depending on the kind of race and what they want to do. They want to go too fast 'cause that'll tire them out. So they have to adapt to the right music at the right pace to the swimming they want to do in that particular race.

So there's a whole art and science that we've used with, with athletes

and with performers in terms of being in the right mood to perform that you have to perform. I've learned to do that when I have to do things like give a presentation or write a [00:15:00] book or whatever. and that's emotional intelligence, knowing how to put yourself in the right frame of mind to get done what you have to get done.

Track 1: Yeah. Nice. I certainly find it's really helpful in my own writing. and have found it annoying that whenever you enter most like marathon races and things, they don't let you listen to music and you're like, mm,

but but not fair.

steven-stein_1_02-27-2024_111051: Yeah. Then you gotta do it in your head. I've trained people in those situations. What are your favorite songs? What's your playlist? Right. And then just learn to do it in your head.

Track 1: I knew someone who said when she was swimming, she would sing a song in her head

a different one every day. Nice.

Does Hardiness Grow over time

steven-stein_1_02-27-2024_111051:

Hardiness: The Three Cs

Track 1: You talked about how emotional intelligence tends to grow over time.

what about Heartiness? Does that change as you age? I.

steven-stein_1_02-27-2024_111051: That's a, that's a really good question. We really haven't found that yet. We haven't found, that same kind of [00:16:00] change in hardiness. but, I think there's sort of more research to do in that area. looking at whether it will change over time. it may be a little bit more resilient. You may

be, you know, unless someone really intervenes and teaches you about control or, you know, something changes your life and suddenly you're committed to something, you, you find your purpose in life. I don't think it changes as naturally.

Track 1: Are there many clear contributing factors in childhoods that change your hardiness? Like, imagine you're being a refugee. I would just expect that you'd be better at being flexible. And there's certainly some studies around like refugees make be better businesses.

steven-stein_1_02-27-2024_111051: it's interesting, some people, again, it, for some people it increases their hardiness, right? 'cause they deal with the challenge. They have a purpose in life. They really wanna succeed. They, they wanna leave behind where they came from. so it really varies on the person, but there are examples of people who are refugees and, strong in hardiness and [00:17:00] succeed to a great deal in our hardiness book.

I think we have some examples of that, of people who came from very difficult situations, but were able to turn it around and be very successful.

Track 1: It sounds like, the military or police forces would be really interested in increasing someone's ability to deal with stress. do they have success in

trying to do

that? I.

steven-stein_1_02-27-2024_111051: Yeah, well, I mentioned the West Point example where it's a big part of the training there for leadership. hardiness is a component that, that's one of the places that was studied and and implemented. But there are, police forces and others, and again, examples I give in the book where they've, implemented ways of trying to, both assess for hardiness and, train for that mindset, the hardiness mindset.

Track 1: So it doesn't necessarily change as you get older, but

with some focus and training, you can actually improve it.

steven-stein_1_02-27-2024_111051: Right? By becoming aware of it is the first step. [00:18:00] Like people have read our book and, suddenly reframed how they see things in their life, and it gives 'em a handle on what they can do to make a change. And, you know, like on the control issue, you know, I've been wasting a lot of my life trying to change the world or change these things that I have no control over. suddenly they start to refocus and look at, well, what do I have control over? What things can I change around me? And it makes a big difference for some people. So that awareness and, and building those skills.

Track 1: do you ever have people reach out to you for specific coaching, like for performance coaching and things? Or is it more that you would just work with big organizations and,

steven-stein_1_02-27-2024_111051: we have, very few that I, will take on. I mean, I, deal a lot of the entertainment world and the celebrity world. So much of my individual work is more focused in that area.

Track 1: Cool. I guess you can't talk about your clients, but of your books, which book

are you most proud

of? Writing? I. And why?

steven-stein_1_02-27-2024_111051: That's tough. It's like, which of? your children do you like the most? [00:19:00] it's hard to say. I mean, I really like, the Hardiness book really. I like what we did with that book. but my best selling book was my book called The EQ Edge, emotional Intelligence in Your Success. And that was my first book and it just keeps selling.

It's an international bestseller. I don't know

why I don't understand the nature of that. My heartiness book is newer, so really hasn't had a chance to really spread its wings, but, the EQ edge maybe 'cause it was one of the first books in the area of emotional intelligence, But, it just seems to have a, a much bigger fan base out there.

Track 1: book was the most challenging to write and why?

steven-stein_1_02-27-2024_111051: Wow, that's good questions. more challenging I guess. The first, the EQ edge was probably challenging because I was transitioning from more academic writing. Into writing for the public, like writing a popular book. And that started out to be, more of a challenge. I mean, I've been writing most of my life.

I've written [00:20:00] things like essays and articles and things like that. But what happened was, I,hired, a magazine writer to work with us

because she wrote for the masses. Like all the time I thought, you

know, magazine writers must be the best writers out there 'cause they write for the masses. They know how to write it or whatever it is, a grade six level, and, capture people's interest. And I think that helped us a lot. I learned a lot from her about, being more engaging and, writing at, the level you need to write at to be, have a popular book. so I guess that one was the most challenging and it really paid off.

Track 1: In terms of the lessons that you learned then to make your writing more interesting. What were those biggest lessons that she gave? Gave you,

steven-stein_1_02-27-2024_111051: well, one is, don't just say something. You sort of work around it. You make it, you sort of tell a story around it and the whole idea of storytelling, and the other

part of it is to. Try and have an unexpected ending, a surprise ending. [00:21:00] So people are engaged by surprise endings and you don't wanna hear the obvious. So we would try and frame things in a way that, there was an interesting story behind it and, the ending may not be what you expected it to be, and that's what makes for interesting reading.

Track 1:

Weird Memories

Track 1: okay. I do have some audible questions that I always end on, which just seems like a very convenient segue from you being like, end with something weird. And I'm like, yes. I have weird things to ask you.

So my first weird thing is what is your earliest memory that you can currently recall?

steven-stein_1_02-27-2024_111051: One of my earliest memories was, as a young kid walking on the street of my, where I lived and, a hurricane at the time. Hurricane Hazel was the hurricane. Came to, Toronto, came to Canada, and, just sort of walking to my house when the hurricane was coming. I guess that's one of my earliest memories.

Track 1: How old were you?

steven-stein_1_02-27-2024_111051: I must have been four, three or four.

Track 1: Okay, [00:22:00] cool.

were you with family like,

steven-stein_1_02-27-2024_111051: Well, when I

got home, I was somehow, I was on the street playing or

something And

Track 1: And you were just walking,

you weren't running or anything?

steven-stein_1_02-27-2024_111051: no, just walking. I mean, I was three years old. I did not know what was happening really. But I found out later it was Hurricane

Hazel.

Yeah.

Track 1: But clearly like memory, memorable and yeah, it's just interesting that kind of the bigger moments that somehow stick in our memory when

everything else gets wiped when we're CP young. I just like finding out about people's things. nice.

Kindest Thing

Track 1: And then what's one of the kindest things

steven-stein_1_02-27-2024_111051: I thought it was really kind when I got accepted into graduate school and, when we first got accepted, the dean met with us individually and I was just so excited to be there and he was just so kind and welcoming, to have us there. that's something that's kind of stuck with me.

Track 1: Did you have an especially low grade or a reason why you shouldn't have been accepted?

steven-stein_1_02-27-2024_111051: Yeah, I guess my, my [00:23:00] grades were okay. I originally started in science cause my mother, my parents wanted me

to be a dentist and I was always unsure about that. But I, so I took all sciences, but then I took the odd psychology course and I would always get, A's in my psychology courses, but I would get like C's in my science courses. So yeah, I was kind of surprised 'cause my, my record didn't look great. Yes, I had all these Psychology A's, but it wasn't until my last year that I took all psychology courses, so I had a kind of a spotty record. So I guess that's another reason I was really grateful that someone saw something in me, in this particular area that I could excel because I wasn't gonna make it in the heart sciences.

Track 1: Yeah, that's a nice lesson, huh. Yeah, I had not very actionable for me as a, non university dean to, go out and use in the rest of my life. But, just generally accepting people who, maybe get the chance to perform. it's always a nice one, so thank you for that. cool. Any weird [00:24:00] questions from you?

Emison? Weird questions. Alright.

When was the last time you

steven-stein_1_02-27-2024_111051: Oh boy. There's a lot of times I get confused. I guess I was confused over a, when I was taking my flight, I was just recently in New Orleans and I was a bit confused over my flight. , you know, what time and when the flight was, I was with my wife and I probably would've missed the plane if she didn't straighten me out and say, no, no, the flight's in the morning.

And I thought it was in the afternoon. And I don't know how I got confused about that.

Moments of Wonder

Track 1: And when was the last time you felt real wonder that you were removed

by something?

steven-stein_1_02-27-2024_111051: I was really moved at, the reason I was in New Orleans is that I was at a conference and, it was a conference of, school psychologists. And, one of the products that we've developed, our organizations developed is a new way of measuring gifted, gifted kids, by not using language.

It's all sort of a nonverbal approach to gifted. And the whole idea is [00:25:00] that much of what's used, and I'm speaking mostly of America, what's much used to select gifted kids in, in courses is heavily relied on verbal, on, language skills. And a lot of kids who come from, more deprived backgrounds don't have that because they're, if you come from a wealthy background, your parents talk to you in a certain way and give you books and read to you.

So we're missing a lot of gifted kids who come from more, difficult backgrounds. So we released this tool and it's become enormously successful. And I think what brought me into wonder was one of the school psychologists came up to me and said.

we've compared your assessment against the existing one that we've been using and we picked up eight kids that wouldn't have been picked up, from your assessment.

Eight kids that came from difficult backgrounds who scored high on your sort of nonverbal tests, measuring giftedness that didn't show up. And that sort of made me feel in wonder and really excited that we're able to make that kind of [00:26:00] contribution to society.

Track 1: Very cool.

Send Off

Track 1: All right. thank you so much for coming on the show and letting us ask lots

of, lots of questions.

steven-stein_1_02-27-2024_111051: Of course. All

Track 1: Uh,

it's been great.

steven-stein_1_02-27-2024_111051: and have a good show

Track 1: Cheers. you're very welcome, sir. Have a nice rest of your day.

Wrap up

Sam: Thanks so much for Steven Stein coming on the show. He was such a good talker and all round. Nice dude.

If you want more of Steven. Well, he has written five books. We of course, spoke in this episode about his book Hardiness, but he's also written the EQ Edge and Emotional Intelligence for Dummies that are really worth reading on the subject of emotional intelligence and might pique your interest.

If you enjoyed the episode, you will also love our other episode with him around mastering your emotional intelligence.

If any topic in the episode made you think of a friend who should hear about the science of Hardiness, well share the love and send them the episode as that is how we grow.

If you want to [00:27:00] share with the world just how hard you are, well perhaps share the episode on Instagram or drop a comment or positive review on the show. And of course, any feedback that you have, do feel free to email me at Growth Mindset podcast@gmail.com.

And remember that life is too short to be held back by your fears or your inability to knuckle down and just do something when you need to do it. So listen to more Van Morrison.

Take it easy and be kind to yourself today and every day.